ABR Dual Battery Kit - Be Informed!

Submitted: Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:05
ThreadID: 39950 Views:26036 Replies:32 FollowUps:30
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I would just like to let people know of my experiences with Derek from ABR 4WD Accessories (www.sidewinder.com.au) when purchasing a Dual Battery Kit for my Prado.

Firstly about me...

I was interested in a dual battery setup for my Prado to run our car fridge on our trip around Australia. I am not very mechanically proficient or used to working with auto electrics. Nevertheless I like to research a bit about what I need so I found the Exploroz site pretty valuable.

I saw some of Derek's postings and advertisements on the ExplorOz website so I started emailing him on my requirements and sourcing further information from him. He was prompt with his replies and he seemed to be pretty helpful in letting me know what I needed. I was concerned about whether I would be able to personally fit the kit myself. Derek assured me it was easy for a novice to fit and that I would not have a problem. He also offered to supply a custom cable for the fridge and supplied images of how to install that additional wiring. So far I was pretty happy with the service so I opted to purchase the kit paying just over $550 for the Battery Kit and custom cable for the fridge.

When the kit arrived it came with more detailed instructions on how to fit it to the Prado. I must admit I was pretty daunted by the steps involved in relocating the power steering reservoir; the modifications to be made to the existing bracket and the hole to be drilled and sealed with silicone to help prevent the onset of rust. This may all be simple stuff to a regular mechanic or auto electrician - to a novice this was anything but. These adjustments to the power steering also raised a further concern on how these modifications would affect the vehicle warranty?

The official word from Toyota is...

Toyota Warranty will continue to apply to original components of the vehicle providing they have not been altered from the manufacturer's specification or impacted by the modifications. Also, the Toyota Warranty will continue to apply if your vehicle is fitted with Toyota Genuine Parts and Accessories. However, any damage resulting from non-genuine modifications will not be covered.

The ABR battery kit parts are non-genuine modifications so this basically means that any problems with the power steering would be void under the warranty. This may not be a concern to some people - it was to me.

Now I was more fully informed of the installation procedure and warranty issues I contacted Derek asking whether I could return the kit and get a refund. None of the packaging had been opened and no attempt had been made at installation. After several emails to and through it basically boiled down to this.

If I wanted to fit the kit Derek was there to help; his recommendation was to engage an auto electrician if I did not feel confident enough (which I didn't). However there was no way Derek was offering any refund on the kit whatsoever. His stance was that he is a small outfit that cannot (or will not) offer refunds. He additionally felt that he could not resell a second hand kit (despite nothing being opened or used). He also argued that the kit was custom made for my Prado. This was not the case, it could be sold to any customer with a Prado - I was willing to concede that the additional cable provided for the fridge may have been custom made and so I was willing to negotiate on that (in reality it is only the length of cable and the effort involved in adding the connectors and labelling). However Derek was not willing to negotiate on anything - he would provide no refunds at all.

This is my first bit of advice for potential customers - be sure what your are buying is exactly what you want; ABR have no refund policy if you change your mind even for a legitimate reason. So Buyer Beware!

Next, to try and make good of a bad situation I sought professional advice and assistance to get this kit installed. I found a great outlet in Osborne Park WA who not only supply batteries but are experienced in fitting dual battery systems to 4WD's. What I learnt here though made me regret my ABR purchase even more.

Firstly I learnt that all the components that ABR had provided in this kit (inc the custom fridge cable) they would retail for less than $300 (quite a bit cheaper than the price charged by ABR).

Secondly and more worryingly was the news that the Battery Tray provided in the ABR kit would be pretty inadequate and flimsy to go 4WD driving in. The proper battery tray for a Prado is significantly more robust and costs around $130 - the tray that ABR provides is a cheap tray which they retail for around $18 and they felt was not fit for purpose for 4WD driving.

One last comment (although not as important) was that the type of isolator provided is not necessarily the best one of choice. They would fit a different model that in addition to the automatic switching it also provides a manual switch so that you crank the engine from the auxiallary battery if your main battery was flat. With the one provided in the ABR kit it is automatic only so jump leads would additionally be required to be able to do this.

In short and from my experience, if ABR provides you with what you need you can rely on Derek to be helpful in the your initial dealings and he will deliver the goods. Should you discover the goods are not what you expected then do not expect any success in returning the goods for a refund. Please be sure that what you are buying is what you want before paying any money.
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Reply By: CHRIS UREN - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:28

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:28
Sorry mate, but I would agree with Derek.
Its your responsibility to verify these points before making your purchase.
Derek would have the probability of not being able to return a specially ordered part from ARB, specially ordered meaning a part or kit which he would not normally keep in stock, so then he would be stuck with a kit that until now he has not needed to keep in stock.
IMHO it is unfair of you to expect Derek to do so.

Just my opinion

Cheers, Chris
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Follow Up By: johnny - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 20:33

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 20:33
why doesnt he tell us what it cost for someone else to do the job

no he didnt mention that as he was trying to do it on the cheap

i fitted my duel battery last weekend with products from derek (abr) and all went ok only a couple of hours to run cable and fit it all up

would really like to know what they charged him to fit i bet it was a lot more than 550
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Follow Up By: Member - John R (NSW) - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 20:54

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 20:54
Don't mean to sound insensitive, but retailers only have to refund or exchange if the goods are faulty or not of merchantable quality - not if you change your mind. So Derek was within his rights to do what he did. Places like the big retailers only do "change of mind" refunds as a gesture of goodwill.
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Follow Up By: JAS095 - Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 14:58

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 14:58
Not having dealt with the person I am unable to comment on my experiences but from what the guy stated at the start was that he was not mechanically minded and stated this to the person whom he was buying from and then that person sells him a kit stating that it easy to fit but requires for the power steering pump to be moved. In my mind this stinks of some one chasing a sale at all cost.
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Reply By: Snowbunny - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:49

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:49
You have stated in one of your out bursts regarding Derek, that you are not very capable of things electrcal......then why the hell didnt you got to an auto electrician in the first place!! Personally I think you've shot yourself in the foot, by putting a post like this one up?? take care in the future.
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Follow Up By: Wizard1 - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:53

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:53
Yep, got to agree with Snowbunny on this one...you sound as though you were out of your depth from the start....
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Reply By: Wizard1 - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:52

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:52
Sour grapes I suppose. We'll see how long this post stays here before the moderator removes the ability of forum members and visitors to get information be it good or bad on suppliers of goods and services to the RV and 4WD faternity.

Why wouldn't you have gone to someone like ARB or TJM. I had a dual battery system and several other accessories fitted by ARB in Osbourne Park, You couldn't ask for a better bunch of customer focussed people.

True story. Got the Prado home after having an ARB dual battery system fitted. In fact they fitted a Narva plug as well as using the existing Toyota power plug in the rear free of charge. Mind you mine is a 95 series TD and didn't need any componets moved. Did a test on the power plugs at the rear by hooking a light up, bang goes the fuse. I ring them up, furious I now had to drive back to Osbourne Park from Swanbourne, no they came to me instead, now that's service.

I never deal with anyone to do with my vehicle that I can't speak to face to face or know I can get nation wide warranty backup such as ARB and TJM. Yes they might cost a bit more but less drama later on.

Buyer beware!
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 01:24

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 01:24
"Why wouldn't you have gone to someone like ARB or TJM."

He probably thought he WAS going to ARB (been plenty of posts about the "choice" of logo/name
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 10:21

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 10:21
QUOTE: "We'll see how long this post stays here before the moderator removes the ability of forum members and visitors to get information be it good or bad on suppliers of goods and services to the RV and 4WD faternity."

They have to, after all Fitch got crucified here by plenty, with absolutely no first hand experience!
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 13:41

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 13:41
It's still here guys????

Why do they "Have to remove it"???

They don't remove posts on the Nissan 3.0 litre issue and Nissan is a site Advertiser!
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Follow Up By: disco1942 - Monday, Dec 04, 2006 at 19:01

Monday, Dec 04, 2006 at 19:01
They removed 39912 on Brisbane RV and it was in a similar vein.

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Reply By: Outnabout David (SA) - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:55

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:55
Mate,

I think you are being a bit harsh. Most Prados and vehicles for that matter require re=locating componenets. If the resivior was moved your power steering would still be covered under warranty unless they could prove that the movement contributed to the failure. Ie if you fitted it upside down and let the oil run out it would not be covered by warranty.
No doubt you have the bleeps on Derek and went to another place and told them the story. Obviously they will bag the competitors product to push their own product.

I have seen a lot of battery setups and they all seem pretty much the same to me as far as fit for the job.

Seems to me he advised you correctly. If you couldn't fit the kit then gety an electrician. You didn't do that but then appears you went and had the job done somewhere else anyway.

Doesn't quite make sense.

Can't wait to here the other side of the story.

Bottom line is that maybe you should have research everything properly in the first place. In have never dealt with Derek myself so have no interest but over the years in business I have come accross many instances where customers think they are hard done by. Different time, different place, differnet product......same story.... customers are not necessarily always right and sometimes embelish the story a bit.
Not saying this ids necessarily true in this case but I would like to see Derks response.

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Reply By: GeoffMc - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:56

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:56
I purchased a kit from Derek for my 4.0L petrol Prado and following his instructions, took me a little over 2 hours to install. Couldn't be happier. The vehicle has now done approx 15K on some pretty ordinary roads..... (Bloomfield Track. Battlecamp Road and Cape York Peninsula) and the battery tray is just fine.

You seem to be hung up on the power steering issue and associated warranty. I'd be more worried about not having warranty on your entire charging/electrical system going by your interpretation of the Toyota warranty.

What about ..."Nevertheless I like to research a bit about what I need so I found the ExplorOz site pretty valuable". Just sounds to me like you got "cold feet" after you spent your money and now want your money back. I'm with ABR on this one.

PS: No affiliation with ABR except being a satisfied customer.
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Reply By: Member - Captain (WA) - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:58

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 12:58
So let me get this right;

1. you make enquires about an aftermarket kit battery kit.

2. You get multiple emails from ABR giving advise before you make a purchase.

3. You decide to make a purchase and find the kit comes with detailed instructions.

4. Then you think about warranty implications and regret your purchase

5. A refund is refuted because the goods supplied were fit and proper, YOU just changed your mind.

6. You then go to another aftermarket supplier (ARB) who give different advise, but you prefer this advise over ABR advise,

7. You then denigrate the products supplied as being cheap and not fit for purpose, yet you have already said you are not mechanically proficient so on what basis did you conclude ARB advise was better than ABR advise?

Seems to me a case of sour grapes after changing your mind and expecting a refund from a small supplier who has done everything right and spent considerable time answering your questions and then supplying a product as requested. Did you expect him to foot the postage bill too?

Did you discuss with Derek a restocking fee, virtually all suppliers I deal with charge a 15-25% restocking fee if I simply order the wrong product.

Captain
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Follow Up By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 13:15

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 13:15
Well said Captain
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Follow Up By: Kev M (NSW) - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 15:33

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 15:33
Yeap couldn't agree more with your comments, All advise Derek posts are of high quality and informative. Cold feet on a purchase is not a claim for refund without at least paying return postage and restocking fee.

Kev
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Follow Up By: Muzzgit [WA] - Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 02:31

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 02:31
Yes, and no.

A restocking fee of any more than 10% would be considered excesive. 10% of $550.00 is $55.00 that would be more than enough. 25% restocking fee is just plain rude.

The supplier is not responsible for return freight unless the goods are faulty or are not what the customer ordered.

The supplier is not under any legal obligation to offer a refund if the goods perform as advertised.
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Reply By: Noldi - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 13:10

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 13:10
Sour grapes or not, I would not like to find Ive been overcharged by 40% for the same items.
Thanks for the feedback, I am looking at a battery system myself.

Rgds
Ian

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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 13:52

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 13:52
But, he did say that he likes to research before he proceeds. One would think that "research" would have included a couple of calls/visits to the likes of ARB in the first place. He chose to buy the gear at the agreed price, so he can't come back later and dispute the whole thing as far as I'm concerned.......it's just too bad.
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Follow Up By: Noldi - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 14:58

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 14:58
Hi Roachie,
Yes I agree he may not have grounds to get a refund, but the beauty of these sorts of posts is that they highlight, what can happen and suppliers out there that are taking advantage.
We all learn from out mistakes, this is a good forum for sharing

Rgds
Ian
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 17:00

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 17:00
Hi Ian, you have no evidence that there is a 40% overcharge.

According to the post, the whole kit could have been supplied by ARB for $300, according to ARB. But their tray alone is $130, leaving only$170 for the rest of the stuff.

Don't think so. ARB is not the cheapest shop on the block.

The customer is wrong, and is probably not telling the whole truth, which might be something like "I can't do this myself, the local sparky is going to charge me bleep loads to fit this kit because I didn't buy it from him, and now I'll try blame Toyota's potential warranty avoidance da de da de dah...the isolator that allows coupling of the batteries for starting sounds better......and he should give me my money back"

You can't get your money back unless the kit can not result in you having two batteries in your Prado.

I think he should offer the kit for sale on E-bay or the exploroz shop and eat his mistake instead of exposing himself to potential libel/slander problems.
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Follow Up By: Noldi - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 17:43

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 17:43
Hi Gerhardp1
This post, like most here need to be investigated before i would bet money on them, however, I think when anyone feels they have not recieved the service or value for money they deserve, they should highlight this so we can at least be informed. As far as the amount of money I guess I'll find out when I investigate further.
As for the libel/slander that would be his concern but sounds like crap to me.

Rgds
Ian

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Follow Up By: JustOnTour - Monday, Dec 04, 2006 at 18:46

Monday, Dec 04, 2006 at 18:46
Just felt I needed to clarify the points made by Gerhardp1.

When I quoted less than $300, that was the price for everthing that Derek supplied in his kit - so this quote is based on the cheap $18 battery tray included. I am choosing to discard that tray altogether and get a tray more suited to the job. This tray is actually costing me $150.

I am not using ARB (or ABR for that matter), I think that is just a bit of confusion generated from all the replies on this topic.

You have inferred that I am not telling the whole truth - I would just like to state that I have been truthful in all my comments and I also tried to be balanced and calm. In the end I am just simply recounting the exact experiences I had.

This is not to further the issue in a public forum with Derek. I have already tried calm negotiation with Derek and when that failed I fully informed him that I would make this posting (before making it). He even suggested he would make the posting himself.

My intention is make sure that anybody in a similar position knows what ABR did do for me and what they did not do for me. Knowing these facts might assist them making appropriate decisions that are right for them.

BTW, The labour cost of getting my battery kit installed is $250.

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Reply By: Member -Signman - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 13:23

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 13:23
I don't know you, or Derek or all the facts of the dispute..
However, if you have an issue with any goods or services that can't be resolved amicably by the supplier/provider- then why not take the dispute to a tribunal.
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Reply By: Max - Sydney - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 13:28

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 13:28
Guys

Have just had a little think about this over lunch, and am inclined to be sympathetic to JustOnTour. I would raise three thoughts:

1. Toyota cannot refuse warranty on anything that has been not been damaged by your action, no matter what they tell you. I'd ring RACWA and talk it through with a tech bloke and get an idea of how much you REALLY expose yourself to.

2. If you do indeed make a realistic impact on your warranty, then Derek had a responsibility to tell you that would happen unless it was installed by a tradesman. As I understand it you made clear you were an enthusiast asking for his advice and he should have told you that it does impact the warranty (if it does). If so, why not ring consumer affairs (preferably in Brisbane if you can afford the long phone call), tell them the story and ask them what recourse you have. I suspect that not telling you about warranty compromise would be incorrect description of the goods you bought and remediable under the Trade Practices Act.)

3. Every time you ask a vendor of anything about goods you just bought from a competitor you will be told you have a disaster on your hands. Just be sceptical about that advice. Again talk to RACWA - they won't be able to recommend brands but they may be able to put you on to someone objective.

Good luck
Max
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Reply By: Gajm - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 13:48

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 13:48
I have bought a few things from Derek, and have been more than happy with the service. His prices were a lot cheaper...but I did my homework first, not after. I have to agree that if you simply changed your mind then you have to wear it.

I am sure there isn't one of us on here that has bought something and then found it cheaper somewhere else...it's one of Murphy's laws. Just do your homework first in future.
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Reply By: Member - John (Vic) - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 14:07

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 14:07
Fitting of almost any other brand of duel battery kit will require shifting of original components such as power steering etc.

Why do you think you may have a warranty issue with Toyota if you fitted ABR's set up and not have the same concerns with fitting a ARB or TJM etc???
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Reply By: DaveNQ - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 14:11

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 14:11
I think you should have done a little more research. However, i also think that if you originally expressed concerns about the fitting of the system and he told you it was easy, he should be prepared to have the items returned. I believe you are both at fault for lack of communication.
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Reply By: Shawsie (Bris) - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 14:58

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 14:58
I think that the real issue is that the Dereks battery system voided the warranty on those items modified to fit the components supplied (as per the Toyo fine print), and maybe this was not conveyed to the customer or the customer did not think to ask. A lack of communication on both parts however, selling a system knowing that it may impact your warranty IMHO certainly means that you should be prepared for a refund if the case (by case) presents itself - as should all bonafide retailers.

I am a customer of Dereks and am very happy with my isolator.
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 13:48

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 13:48
Don't you mean he is using the supposed voiding of warranty (His Claim) to try and back out of his deal???

As I have said Show me a duel battery installation by any manufacturer that does not require the shifting of some under bonnet components.

Even the duel battery set up offered by Toyota for fitments to the Troop Carrier as a "Genuine Toyota Accessory" requires re arrangement of various stuff.

To impact your warranty you they must show that the shifting of the component caused the issue.
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Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 at 00:45

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 at 00:45
Do I understand that ANY dual battery system installed that required the moving of 'original' Toyota parts would void the Toyota warranty, if the system is ABR or ARB, Piranha or even "Toyota" supplied is not relevant?

I think John (Vic) may have hit the nail on the head !!

What I understand about this post to this point is;
ANY and ALL suppliers will void the Toyota warranty, even OE parts, so no matter who fits the system there is no warranty??

What is the likelihood of warranty to be claimed on the parts 'moved' ??
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Reply By: Redback - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 15:10

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 15:10
I'm not going to get into your gripe, but i can say this NO COMPANY selling goods can refuse you the return of goods, if you aren't happy with a product and wish to return it they must under the law give you your money back, it is also against the law to say "no refunds" on any product.

If it has been damaged that's another story.

Baz.
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 15:14

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 15:14
The law is quite explicit and it appears Derek has acted quite within the boundaries of it. My following post details the when and if of refunds.
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Follow Up By: Redback - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 17:08

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 17:08
Not knowing the circomstances i can't and wouldn't comment Barry, there might be a case in there but who knows.

And yes if i was Derek i wouldn't argue on the forum, it's not the place to air differances over buying goods.

Baz.
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Follow Up By: silkwood - Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 08:18

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 08:18
Baz, sorry, your statement is absolutely incorrect. There are very specific reasons one can return a product, and you not being happy with it isn't included.

This misconception causes no end of trouble in the retail world (most wholesale customers are more informed). This isn't a statement supporting or disabusing the original post (one side of the story). Just want to make it clear, no state in Australia has regulations suggesting you can return a product just because you're not happy with it. It does, however, depend upon WHY you're not happy with it, that may change the issue.

You are correct in that stating "No Refunds" is against the regulations, this simply means refunds MAY apply, depending upon the circumstances.

Cheers,

Mark
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Monday, Dec 04, 2006 at 21:31

Monday, Dec 04, 2006 at 21:31
ditto to silkwood and Landy.

There is no automatic right of return/refund in Australia.
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Reply By: The Landy - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 15:11

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 15:11
I don’t expect Derek will necessarily respond in a public forum on a dispute between his business and a customer; my experience with him has been positive both on service and price.

It isn’t Derek’s responsibility to ensure that the buyers don’t void any warranties on the vehicle as he isn’t a party to the warranty. In terms of refunds I don’t see that a refund is due and the law appears to support this.

The following relates to consumers rights. When you read this it isn’t hard too form an opinion that Derek’s reputation has been unfairly questioned in this instance.

The Trade Practices Act implies certain promises into all consumer contracts. These statutory warranties and statutory conditions are referred to as implied warranties or statutory rights. They include the right to refund if goods are defective.

When a consumer buys goods or services a statutory warranty is implied regardless of cost, country of origin or manufacturer. Statutory warranties cannot be overwritten or signed away. They give the consumer basic rights:

that the goods are fit to be sold

that the item is fit for the purpose it is intended for

that the item matches the description or sample given

That services are carried out with due skill and care.

Do retailers have to give refunds?

Yes, if:

goods are faulty or they become faulty soon after buying them

goods are unfit for their purpose—which means they won't do what the consumer reasonably expected them to

goods don't match the retailer's description or sample

Retailers have offered any voluntary, or extra, warranties or promises about refunds.

No, if:

customers simply change their minds after buying the goods

customers have discovered they can buy the goods more cheaply or on better terms somewhere else

the customer knew about a particular fault before buying the goods

The customer damaged the goods.
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Reply By: Member No 1- Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 15:16

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 15:16
The seller does not have to give back your money unless its not fit for its purpose...go buy some pink jocks and see if you get your money back

albeit some do though? its a method used to keep cutomers coming through the door.....maybe dereck doesnt need to or even want to (cos he sees a pain in the but and this is way to terminate it)...and thats his call

Buyer beware & tough luck i say...go to KMart next time... they give you back your money

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Follow Up By: Pajman Pete (SA) - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 17:22

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 17:22
What's wrong wth pink jocks?
Any mug can be uncomfortable out bush

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Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 21:55

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 21:55
Member no1 ,since when do you wear pink jocks ? Ok in a previous persona you were "Nudie" so now pink jocks ? personally would not be seen dead in pink ,jocks or otherwise , but a nice "chartreuse " with black and white polkadots , now your talking !!!! in silk of course.
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 09:56

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 09:56
pink doesnt suit me...
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Reply By: Ron George - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 16:03

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 16:03
Don`t you just love the pedantic little one`s of this world… My goodness gracious… fiddle de dee… Aye JustOnTour …Mate it`s a crying shame you didn`t take some of your own advice before you started this exercise… Old Jungle saying… “Better to look like a fool… Than to open your mouth and confirm it”… I do hope you’ve taken the lesson on board, And I do hope you don’t let this post or any of the others put you off making contributions to this forum!!!…We need blokes like you to remind us as to how clever WE really are, & If you think that you`ve had a big stick taken to you.. Narrrrrr only a little old love tap mate!!!... Just don`t mention that you`re going to fit a Hi Clone or Fitch fuel thingy. I`m outterear… Cheese Ron.
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Follow Up By: Junior - Saturday, Dec 09, 2006 at 03:39

Saturday, Dec 09, 2006 at 03:39
aaaaaaahahahahahahahaha
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Reply By: Member - Teabag (Queanbeyan) - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 16:39

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 16:39
For me what this post highlights with the many varied replies is the varied expectations from a business, let alone a small business. This little ditty shows that owning a small business no matter the field is really tough and it is really hard to make everybody happy.

I must admit that with anything that I have fitted or have had fitted by different 4wd stores in the past is long , hard research. There are many forms but the best research I have found is through the 4wd club and actually see the items fitted to vehicles. It is also great to actually see the item in action and confirm that this is the best item for you. Varies 4wd shops will tell you varied information that in some cases is down and out wrong, has with any business. Warranty is always going to be an issue with any modification made and at the end of the day anytime you change the vehicle it is a risk.

JustOnTour, Sorry to hear but I hope there is a lesson learnt here and from the info you have provided I feel it is hard to make Derek responsible for this error in judgement......
AnswerID: 208008

Reply By: Gerhardp1 - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 17:16

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 17:16
I have purchased items from ABR for my dual battery installation, and I was happy with the price and the items I received, which all work perfectly.

You have made an error of judgement in your ability to carry out the required installation. there is nothing wrong with admitting this, but there is everything wrong with trying to blame Derek for your shortcoming.

Grow up, take responsibility for your error, put the kit on E-Bay or the Exploroz trader section, get $300 for it and get on with life.

Take the $250 loss, then buy the you beaut system you have found for less than $300 and you will have what you want, you'll be able to hold your head high like a man, and you'll have purchased a $200 odd experience you can tell the grandkids about.

Just keep it off this forum.

AnswerID: 208019

Reply By: Pajman Pete (SA) - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 17:38

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 17:38
No sympathy here mate. I normally don't flame other forumites, but in this instance I think you have no justification in your statements.

"ABR have no refund policy if you change your mind even for a legitimate reason."

No retailer is required to do this by law and neither should they be. Only a few choose to and they are big chains like Target. I can think of any amount of stuff I would like to have taken back after I got it home, but I was the dill with the credit card who bought it.

"that the type of isolator provided is not necessarily the best one of choice"

So what - isolator choices cause almost as many arguments on this forum as the endless Toyota/Nissan, Coopers/Bridgestone, Engel/Waeco debates. All of the commonly available ones will do the job. My choice of isolator doesn't have all the bells and whistles of the more expensive ones, but it effectively charges my batteries which is all I ask of it.

"Should you discover the goods are not what you expected..."

From what you have said they were exactly as described by Derek - you got what you ordered. So with a little more effort you find you claim that you can get a better deal elsewhere - isn't life tragic.

Pete

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AnswerID: 208023

Reply By: Member - Dunworkin (WA) - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 19:51

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 19:51
I'm not going into the debate re the wrongs and the rights of this discussion however personally if I buy something, anything wether from Target, Kmart or wherever if it is faulty I will try for a refund but if for some reason I change my mind or find another better that is my bad luck, not the companies.

This from the sisterhood probably sounds too simple but if you are not sure of fitting this yourself and are worried about the warranty why not pay a bit more and get TOYOTA to fit it????? too simple??

I must point out that I had some dealingS with Derek a little while ago and found him to be extremely helpful.

Hope it all works out well in the end

Cheers

D


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AnswerID: 208042

Reply By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 20:17

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 20:17
Lets have a look at the 2003 ARB catalogue ('cause I have it handy...)

Battery tray: Not listed for Prado, lets run with your $130

Isolator/solenoid: Smart Solenoid $213

There's $343 before you buy cable @ around $15/meter say 5 metres for the prado??? $75, terminals $30, Hella plug/socket @ $30/pair, switch for the "start from aux battery(which the Redarc will also do) $19, Circuit breaker @ $30...

What have we got from ARB in 2003, most likely prices haven't gone down...

$527... I'd say you did OK...
AnswerID: 208049

Reply By: Doggy Tease - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 21:00

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 21:00
I havent bought anything from Derek, but i have asked for a quote on some stuff, and he was a bloody lot cheaper than i can get anywhere here in Perth.
I have also just asked questions of the man, and he has bent over backwards to point me in the right direction, even though he knows he won't get a sale out of it.
As far as i am concerned, i have never had a problem with Derek, or his advice, and will continue to seek out his knowledge in his specialist field.

rick.
AnswerID: 208054

Reply By: Member - Norm C (QLD) - Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 21:26

Friday, Dec 01, 2006 at 21:26
Mmmm, a tough one.

You have clearly leapt in before doing as much research as you should have. I installed my own dual battery system (but had terminations and circuit breakes done by an auto elec), including moving components to fit stuff in. It may be daunting, but with the right research and advice it is not difficult.

The fact that you now believe you could have got the same stuff for cheaper elsewhere is your problem, even if it is true, unless Derek has guaranteed you the cheapest price and beating all competitors (which I doubt), this is your issue.

If you told Derek you use the vehicle for off roading and he sold you a battery cradle that is not fit for purpose, you have a fair claim. If you believe you are right, take him on.

If he has cut cable and done terminations to your specs, you can't expect a full refund (and you have acknowledged that).

On the other issues, you have no 'RIGHT' to a refund if the items are fit for the purpose you have described to Derek. They don't have to be the best available, just fit for purpose. You have simply changed your mind as you have got cold feet on doing the installation yourself and have other advice from another retailer (surprise, surprise).

But, given that the items (other than cable) are generic and are still in sealed bags, I'm a bit surprised Derek hasn't gritted his teeth and offered you a refund (less postage each way) on all items except the cable.

But, from the info provided, he is within his rights to refuse a refund (the battery cradle notwithstanding, depending on the purpose you told him it was for). It is a commercial decision he is entitled to make and accept the consequences of.

I've run businesses, and might have made a different decision, but that's personal choice. He has every right to make the choice he has.

By the way, under the circumstances (including your obvious frustration) you have made a pretty balanced post. Until you got to the point of wanting a refund, you have desribed very good service from Derek.
AnswerID: 208057

Reply By: _gmd_pps - Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 02:08

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 02:08
If you have ordered specificly for the Prado and if the kit
was delivered for that purpose without mention or provision of the instructions upfront , and if the kit needs relocating OEM parts and you refuse to do that you
are entitled to return for full refund.

The other thing is why do you even attempt doing something when you have no clue .. saving money ?

and .. I do not like the ABR business name either .. it's a cheap shot and does tell a lot about the person running it.

have fun
gmd
AnswerID: 208093

Reply By: Barnesy - Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 04:05

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 04:05
Prodigy electric brake controller from retail outlets: $357. From Derek: $177 (including postage). That's a bargain.
I shopped around, found exactly what I wanted then found the best price. You can't expect a firm selling products over the internet to give refunds because you don't know what you want.

Barnesy
AnswerID: 208098

Reply By: Member - nrb1748 (VIC) - Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 11:43

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 11:43
Sharing my experience with Derek.

I purchased dual battery components from Derek a few months ago. The prices were 'right'.

I needed to double check a mounting arrangement for the dual battery controller on a Saturday afternoon.

Rang his business number. Got re directed to his mobile phone. Rang it. Derek answered. I asked my question and was given clear guidance in a very friendly manner. Great service even though outside normal business hours.
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AnswerID: 208139

Reply By: Member - John (Vic) - Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 13:52

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 13:52
I notice that Mr JustonTour has not responded in his continued defence to any of the comments listed in this thread since his original post????

I'm starting to wonder if this bloke is for real or did has he just "Hit and Run"????

Maybe we should call him Mr Troll instead???
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AnswerID: 208153

Reply By: Member - Arkay (SA) - Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 15:16

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 15:16
1. Must be a petrol Prado as my belief is that there are no internal relocations required for a 120TD Prado.
2. The standard isolator is normally about 180 amps, which is insufficient to enable you to "switch" your backup battery to start your vehicle if the normal battery dies. The minimum isolator capacity to enable a switching method is 400 amps, 600 would be better, and these are A LOT more expensive than the standard one.
The normal "emergency" methods are either to use adequately sized jumper leads correctly connected from back-up to main battery, or simply to remove the normal battery and pop the backup in its place until you get to the next garage.
3. I respect Dereks input on this site.
AnswerID: 208162

Follow Up By: Muddy doe (SA) - Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 15:32

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 15:32
Arkay,

Correct on point one. I have the TD Prado and TJM were able to slot in their solid heavy duty tray ($130) with no internal mods. Pity same cannot be said for the Petrol models.

On point 2 I have the TJM DBS isolator system with a "Link" button that can be used to manually link the two batteries for winching or other heavy loads, or (as TJM assured me) starting the vehicle from the second battery should the main batt ever go flat. The specs for this system includes a 180amp Nagres (spelling?) relay. Are you saying that this would be inadequate for a vehicle start from the second battery?

Cheers
Muddy
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FollowupID: 468106

Reply By: JustOnTour - Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 15:51

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 15:51
Thank you everybody for the wide interest and responses. I appreciate everybodies views and opinions.

In the end the reason for my post was simply to keep people informed so that someone in my similar position may learn from my own experiences and make appropriate judegements that are right for them.

It is is not sour grapes; it is sharing experiences so people can make informed decisions for themselves. I know what I would do second time around but I just have to put that down to one of live's experiences. I am over it. I wish Derek all the best with his business and I am happy there are many happy customers out there supporting him. I'm afraid I am no longer one of them - I personally would have felt negotiation on return the goods was the sensible solution for both if us - unfortunately Derek did not feel that way.

That is his decision and although it disappointed me I respect it. I just feel other potential customers should know this too before they purchase.

Have a happy life...
AnswerID: 208169

Follow Up By: The Landy - Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 20:36

Saturday, Dec 02, 2006 at 20:36
Putting another perspective on this - flip the coin for a second and look at it from Derek's viewpoint and see how disppointed he might feel.

He provides you with service and advice (indicated in your original post), supplies what you need, you find that you don't have the experience to do the work yourself and find it cheaper somewhere else, want to return it and he rightly says no. You than put his business to the torch on a public forum without recognsing that he has acted fully within his rights and what appears to be in accordance with the consumer laws.....maybe he's the guy that should feel a tad disappointed!
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FollowupID: 468151

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Monday, Dec 04, 2006 at 21:45

Monday, Dec 04, 2006 at 21:45
I have called Derek about three or four times about things electrical including a barney I was having with a battery that was supplied with a warranty that was looking like it wasn't worth the money it was written on.

I never bought the battery from Derek, but he spent considerable time with me on the phone providing a lot of useful information and advice that helped me get the outcome desired from the battery's supplier.

Derek is a great bloke. I have had three or four very easy, knowledgable, helpful and great value transactions with Derek. I am sure to recommend Derek whenever I can. I am also sure Derek is not a charity and I wish his business every success and will continue to support it when I need products he sells.

Other than being a delighted customer, I have no other conflict of interest to declare.

[Sorry I won't say who I bought the battery from ;-) ]
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FollowupID: 468574

Reply By: Member - Bradley- Saturday, Dec 09, 2006 at 18:06

Saturday, Dec 09, 2006 at 18:06
hmm, i bet you are more than happy to shank someone else who requires your knowledge, in your field of profession, yet P..S and moan when you need help and advice from someone in their field - especially when you admit you have no knowledge in the area.

A guy offers what appears to be more than adequate help and advice, even offering to provide custom gear to ease the job, this is without getting paid to do the labour on the install and have the vehicle in front of him to do it easily. Did you get invoiced for x amount of labour for all the phone calls and info - NO. Sheez most of us only have what we know to make a quid, and on this site most of us are happy to share with likeminded others, "send it forward" as the saying goes.

You purchased a kit for the job requested, is it capable of fullfilling the job- yes (if not the supplier will rectify), is it faulty - no, did you get cold feet and bleep e yourself - YES, Just sell the kit on if you dont want it and learn from your experience. DONT bleep e on someone when from all accounts they have acted in a proper and industry standard manner.

oh - and buy a stock vehicle and live with it, dont change a thing, pay the full price and pay exorbitant amounts for dealer service from where you got it, and maybe - just maybe you will get some warranty coverage.

have a nice day :-)
AnswerID: 209486

Reply By: Jimbo - Saturday, Dec 09, 2006 at 20:55

Saturday, Dec 09, 2006 at 20:55
Well I'm happy to go against the tide, being popular has never been something I desire.

Derek has adhered to the law and has every right to reject your request.

HOWEVER........

In the current market many retailers exceed their legal requirements in the interest of customer service, public relations and repeat business.

Many of us shop at Myer, K Mart, Big W etc because we know we can return damn near anything, and they have set a standard.

In this instance I feel Derek is being a bit mean spirited. Let's face it....he wouldn't have been out of pocket by returning the items (other than the custom length cable) and would have built goodwill.

Has he made a good business decision? I doubt it. There is the possibility that a number of people may have read this thread and may choose to take their business elsewhere.

My opinion, he was within his rights, but made a mistake.

I'd buy elsewhere.
AnswerID: 209516

Follow Up By: The Landy - Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 at 08:51

Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 at 08:51
Jimbo

Contrary to your thought I feel he is out of pocket for the time and effort put in to getting the right product for the purchaser in the first instance. I think your approach is one of the quickest ways to put small business operators, who often provide a useful and personalised service when compared to the major chain stores you mention, out of business.

Imagine, pick the brains of the small operator because the major chains can’t provide the level of service, buy the product from the small operator, but then insist on returning it when you find it cheaper in the major chain store……..

Eventually you end up with nothing but major chain stores, and little in the way of service. I’d sooner pay a higher price to get the level of required service.
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FollowupID: 470101

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